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Title: Lets make Ryuuken good. [Print this page]
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 16:16:05     Title: Lets make Ryuuken good.

Prelude; I think to much and sometimes that makes me crazy.

I was thinking about this character today. I think he is quite a bit better then people think.

For example, in a 1v1 situation against a Mugetsu, Ryuuken does pretty well. He has some amount of dodge vs almost anyone ( even hit stacked hes likely to be at 10-25% ). He has a self heal, even if it is weak. He hits harder then Mugetsu. He can ignore Mugetsu fury reduction ( Ryuuken crits fury return for days ). He also has enough stamina growth to survive for a while if things go south.

Now, Obviously Mugetsu is a far better character overall. But in a 1v1 vs Mugetsu with all things equal, Ryuuken might be the character I take, and hes certainly the cheapest character to combat Mugetsu. That fact alone probably warrants some attention, right?

So, how do we make Ryuuken shine?

First, I think we have to ditch the whole Nel thing. It's cute when it happens, but if you manage to get a skill off with Nel without her being CC'd or Murked, you probably were going to win that fight anyway. I mean, replace Nel with any other character that has a impact on the fight and it probably achieves more.

A natural pairing with Ryuuken would be Brukia. She goes with everyone, I know, but she eliminates most of the problems Ryuuken might face, and Ryuuken deals with the issues that Brukia has trouble with ( Mainly sticky assaulters ).

From here I am all over the place. I am considering On-Death characters like Tav Byakuya ( 175% to all ), or Barragan ( 25% x 3 to all ) as a throw away skill effect. I am sure some of you are laughing right now. :-P. Realistically, In a easy fight it really doesn't matter who they are. In a hard fight, I would want my other characters to do something... anything, and the chances of them getting murked very early no matter who they are, is pretty high. Shinigami Kensei is probably the epitome of that thought with a 2 round invuln. I even considered Ryuumon Ikkaku, but then I quickly realized that his price is still stupid. Tav Retsuo is another option, healing on death would negate most of the damage put on your important characters, though if Ryuuken dodges like you want him to, the heal is wasted. Still might be a viable emergency option.

Anyway, I would love to hear thoughts on Ryuuken in general, and how you would use him in a team.









author: Uciffer4    time: 2015-10-11 16:34:51

I think him as a good mid game character, but is not end game. I have 200+ hit rate just with ryoka, seteitei atack and stuff. People who beat aizen have 300+ hitrate so they aint missing a single atack even with nel skill.

If u use him you will have to use Nel which it isnt the best support ever and both of them lacks in speed (im always comparing to end game characters).

If i had to use 8000 point in lucky turntable i rather to buy kensei or Brenji because they are endgame partners in pve.
author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-11 16:38:47

First, I think we have to ditch the whole Nel thing. It's cute when it happens, but if you manage to get a skill off with Nel without her being CC'd or Murked, you probably were going to win that fight anyway. I mean, replace Nel with any other character that has a impact on the fight and it probably achieves more.


What makes you think that the same situation can't be applied on Ryuuken?

As for his modifications 3/6 are extra dodge... even with evo he'd get around 180%basic dodge.. which isn't 'a lot' for high Vip players, hence you won't see him being used alot. However if you can pair him with nell, his dodge will rise to a point were even High vips might have trouble hitting him.

So for low vips, Ryuuken could be a character worth picking up*.. but for the amount of gold he cost you're better off with other characters. If I'm not mistaken, B.renji cost the same amount of gold and he's so much better: pvp and pve wise.

* He has no Break def, mod so even if you can't be hit there's a possibilty where you can kamikaze yourself on a strong VG (due to block)

TLDR: Not worth the amount of gold
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 16:50:26

Uciffer4 replied at 2015-10-11 16:34
I think him as a good mid game character, but is not end game. I have 200+ hit rate just with ryoka, ...

I don't think you know how dodge works.

Every percent over the targets dodge is a percent to hit. You need 100% more hit rate to hit 100% of the time. If Ryuuken has 210% Dodge ( without evo, bonds, nel ), you need 310% Hit Rate to hit him with every hit.

He is not invulnerable. That's the point of this thread. A dead character with stacked hit rate isn't hitting anything. Enter BRukia. Etc, etc. The idea is to try and make him good. :-P
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 16:56:22

Edited by Aristeaus at 2015-10-11 17:12
595459354 replied at 2015-10-11 16:38
What makes you think that the same situation can't be applied on Ryuuken?

As for his modification ...

Ryuuken can get 210% dodge without evo. He is probably the tankiest damage dealer in the game at his core. Mugetsu might have a word with him, but as I described in the original post, he might be the best character against Mugetsu.

Also, he has 30% Break Def on his passive and another 30% on his skill. So... Huh? Rukia eats VG. He bypasses VG. I am confused by your edit.

Let's assume you have to use Ryuuken. How would YOU go about it? That's what we want to get to the heart of!
author: Uciffer4    time: 2015-10-11 16:57:12

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-11 16:50
I don't think you know how dodge works.

Every percent over the targets dodge is a percent to hit ...

Still, to make Ryuken works you need Nel te hit 1st and i see that a little too much hard. And why to buy ryuken when you could get kensei or renji at the same price?
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 17:05:55

Uciffer4 replied at 2015-10-11 16:57
Still, to make Ryuken works you need Nel te hit 1st and i see that a little too much hard. And why ...

I don't think you have to even use Nel.

I am not trying to argue that Kensei or Renji wouldn't be better partners overall. I will, however, argue that Ryuken is better then both of them in the situation I am trying to achieve, which is ideally a team with only 1 person left on it, which will often be the case against a Ryuken + Bankai Rukia team. They will likely stack stones on their best guy, leaving Rukia to do her thing, and Ryuken to clean up shop.

author: grzesiekgabrile    time: 2015-10-11 17:14:08

Ryuken dodge is for nothing, try to fight with enemy who have 3x T1 and you see how he dodge lol
He need to be faster that other this is 1 and sec Nell never will be faster that other supp like CSB Aizen, Ult Aizen
So she may only help with mod when she is dead
Ryuken is usles... In this game speed and T1 is all
author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-11 17:15:17

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-11 22:56
Ryuuken can get 210% dodge without evo. He is probably the tankiest damage dealer in the game at hi ...

Well It isn't that hard to get 300%+hit on your characters --> bye bye use of Ryuuken.
Tanky or not, doesn't matter if you're stunlocked, say hi to Mr.SWP aizen.. which you'll encounter almost always (end-game wise) vs other vips of your calibre.

As for your 1v1.. Mugetsu is faster and has damage/block mods.. and a natural hight str %. Don't forget that  he has some insane bond features (dmg rate/ extra att). Lastly there's tensa zangetsu that gives 100extra crit dmg to him..

Conclusion:: Ryuuk'n would get raped.

If I were to use Ryuuken I'd abuse his dodge talent/modifications. However in the current meta I see no place for him.
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 17:18:16

grzesiekgabrile replied at 2015-10-11 17:14
Ryuken dodge is for nothing, try to fight with enemy who have 3x T1 and you see how he dodge lol
He  ...

Them having T1 does not invalidate his dodge. You can dodge skills.

BRukia will have T1. I did mention that. Shes gonna be faster then those characters you mentioned and probably kill them. Ryuuken is there for the long fight/clean up. He isn't there to blow up a team right away. He is never going to do that with 3.3 Agi growth.

I wouldn't use Nel in any situation.
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 17:32:08

595459354 replied at 2015-10-11 17:15
Well It isn't that hard to get 300%+hit on your characters --> bye bye use of Ryuuken.
Tanky or no ...

To get 300%+ hit on all of your characters? That's probably harder then you want to admit. Getting 300% on the characters that survive BRukia is probably the more logical argument and I'll assume that is what you meant.

Sure, if anyone is stun locked it doesn't matter. Though the idea is to prevent that. BRukia is gonna to hurt stuff and go before those popular stunners. I also mentioned literally 2 characters for the potential team. Who's to say I am not using SWP Aizen as well? Etc. Etc. We are in this thread to flush the idea out.

Mugetsu is faster, but that is mostly irrelevant. He doesn't do anything to Ryuuken. His form of control is Fury reduction that doesn't work on him ( he has 150 fury always, until the end of time ). Ryuuken and Mugetsu have the same STR %. Not sure why you mentioned block mods cause +60% Break Def, but yes, Mugetsu does have Damage mods. Ryuuken has +50 extra fury every round which equates to 12.5%? Extra damage. He also skills every round, which will make him outdamage Mugetsu.

Not saying he would win. But he puts up a better fight then most, if not all, the other characters in the game, and he is certainly the cheapest option to combat anyone in 1v1.
author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-11 17:46:01

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-11 23:32
To get 300%+ hit on all of your characters? That's probably harder then you want to admit. Getting ...

I'll admit that getting 300%+ is 'though' but it isn't impossible.

Getting 250% on all your characters on the other hand isn't that hard and what was your calculation for this
f Ryuuken has 210% Dodge ( without evo, bonds, nel ), you need 310% Hit Rate to hit him with every hit.

. I don't got the partner but I don't see  him having 210% dodge b4 evo/bond/nell.

Base = 90% + mods (10+20+30) = 150%

Even if he has 300% dodge.. with 250%hit you can still hit him 50% of the times/character.


As for the 300% on Brukia, no idea what you meant with that one.



Who's to say I am not using SWP Aizen as well? Etc. Etc. We are in this thread to flush the idea out.

Well imo he's outshined when placed in the same team with SWP aizen etc. Anyway, there'll always be a better partner than Ryuuuken. You can make him decent though, but not the best.


Lastly:
Mugetsu is faster, but that is mostly irrelevant. He doesn't do anything to Ryuuken.

Boy, you need to redo your math.. Ryuuken phys def isn't comparable to Mugetsu's phys attack. He's gonna outdamage him like no other. As for his speed, you were talking about a 1v1, the person that strikes 1st is most of the times destined to win.

As for the 60%break def, where did that come from? (even if he has that, doesn't matter, can't outdmg mugetsu).


He is certainly the cheapest option to combat anyone in 1v1.

For 1v1's, there's shinigami yoruichi.

ps: I'm gonna leave the topic now, just stated my opinion
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 19:09:27

595459354 replied at 2015-10-11 17:46
I'll admit that getting 300%+ is 'though' but it isn't impossible.

Getting 250% on all your charac ...

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!

I do find it funny that you tell me to check my math when you say that 250% hit rate will hit 300% Dodge 50% of the time. I explained how dodge is calculated earlier. 250% hit rate will hit 300% dodge -150% of the time. Characters start with 100% hit, and 0% dodge. This gives them a 100% chance to hit. If I increase a characters dodge to 99%, your character has a 1% chance to hit.  Essentially, every % above the dodge is your chance to hit. Having even 209% hit rate against 210% dodge means you will NEVER hit the character. 250% hit rate against 210% dodge is a 40% hit rate.

Ryuuken has 60% from Mods, 30% passively, 90% from stones, and 30% from skill. Before evolution. Before bond. Before nel. That is 210%.

When I mentioned Rukia, I was referring to the fact that shes going to skill first in this set up, and before anyone else on the enemy team. This means she is probably going to kill some stuff. Having 300% hit rate on characters she kills won't impact Ryuuken at all, because, well, they would be dead.

Lastly:

I don't think you understand much of anything going on in this thread. Ryuuken has 30% Break def on his PASSIVE. He has another +30% on his SKILL. That is where the +60% Break def came from, and I explained that.

Ryuuken has 190% max crit rate. Even with 90% counter, you are going to get crit every single turn, for a 192.5% skill ( More then Mugetsu's btw ).  He gets the extra 12.5% from having 150 fury constantly, just so we are clear. Mugetsu, at best, will skill once every 3 turns. Mugetsu will do 190+100+100 in that time with a small chance of critting. Ryuuken, will do 192.5+192.5+192.5 with a guaranteed chance of critting each strike. That math isn't hard to figure out.

That's also assuming that Mugetsu never misses.

Mugetsu is CLEARLY the better character. I am not at all arguing that. Ryuuken is a Niche character, and I am trying to figure out where he might fit in.

I don't know if you are trolling me or what. Did you really just say Shinigami Yoruichi when you made the argument that Ryuuken wouldn't be able to damage Mugetsu for anything? lol. You do know Ryuuken has a 4.8 str growth rate and a str passive right? Cause Yoruichi is only 3.5. Her skill modifier doesn't matter that much if there isn't anything there to modify :-P

author: ajoalex    time: 2015-10-11 19:18:42

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 04:09
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!

I do find it funny that you tell me to check my mat ...
Having even 209% hit rate against 210% dodge means you will NEVER hit the character.

Thats what even i thought, but why does it not work on hma aizen 1v1 for me then, with 280% hit , i can hit him say 1/10 times with my be.renji ie on the first attack . I thought i had to get over 320%[which everyone says] to be able to land a hit. But i get to hit him 1/10 times, how is that being a chance when it clearly has to be a sure thing?
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 19:30:25

ajoalex replied at 2015-10-11 19:18
Thats what even i thought, but why does it not work on hma aizen 1v1 for me then, with 280% hit , ...

320% ( I actually believe it is higher, despite what some others have said ) is the rate in which you hit him 100%, or near 100% of the time. I believe it is higher because every battle rep / video with people at 320% they still miss probably 20% of the time when they defeat him. I also don't imagine people did it on the first try.

I would put his dodge ( If it works like players ) at about 250%. 320% hit rate would give you a 70% hit rate, which seems about what is shown. That would put your hit rate at about 30% right now.

Not that I don't believe your 1/10 statement, but that seems really low considering. You would need 360% hit rate for 100% Aizen attacks by your estimation.

Pretty easy way to find out. Go down to 249% and see if you can hit him at all, and work your way up slowly. Time consuming, but you would know exactly what it was.
author: ajoalex    time: 2015-10-11 19:36:51

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 04:30
320% ( I actually believe it is higher, despite what some others have said ) is the rate in which  ...

i tried with 248-252-256% , doesnt land a hit at all. but at 280% he does land a hit, and 1/15 times i can hit him for two times straight without missing a hit on him. yeah maybe he is at 250-260 range then.
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 19:43:02

ajoalex replied at 2015-10-11 19:36
i tried with 248-252-256% , doesnt land a hit at all. but at 280% he does land a hit, and 1/15 tim ...

Ironically, the chances of you hitting twice in a row at a 30% hit rate is 9%, which is really close to 1/15 ( 6.67% ).

So its pretty damn close to what I calculated based on watching videos :-P
author: ajoalex    time: 2015-10-11 19:54:47

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 04:43
Ironically, the chances of you hitting twice in a row at a 30% hit rate is 9%, which is really clo ...

hehe not bad

oh btw ryuuken, i really wanted to get him, but 3.3 agi rate is no use against the top players. forget skilling he would atleast be silenced if not killed. so i would say if he gets to skill, then it means say b.rukia or someone else cleared the fast partners and then you just have to clean up. for that even be.renji would do good.

so ryuuken would be good only with b.rukia acc to you?
reg skill on death, i like tav aizen, chance to reduce fury of those heavy fury users. and my fav is tav unohana, that heal !!! she is my current pvp supporter lol
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 20:02:32

ajoalex replied at 2015-10-11 19:54
hehe not bad

oh btw ryuuken, i really wanted to get him, but 3.3 agi rate is no use against th ...

That's the problem I think. You basically NEED BRukia to skill first to clear out all that stuff.

Then it basically comes down to who is the better cleanup 1v1 partner. I honestly think Ryuuken is up there.

Though he probably isn't worth the effort. TSI, Mugetsu, even Unohana Kenpachi would be, at worst, just as good, but contribute something to PvE and Hollow. Ryuuken doesn't exactly do that.. :-P
author: ajoalex    time: 2015-10-11 20:07:55

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 05:02
That's the problem I think. You basically NEED BRukia to skill first to clear out all that stuff.  ...

yeah, but then pve say es/ryoka, i wonder if that dodge could actually make him stay for 20 rounds. then that str rate would be too good with that crit rate.
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-11 20:23:44

ajoalex replied at 2015-10-11 20:07
yeah, but then pve say es/ryoka, i wonder if that dodge could actually make him stay for 20 rounds ...

It did a long time ago. They fixed it rather quickly. I remember some Yachiru video floating around.

I'll probably end up restarting tomorrow on #245. Top up 20k will be like 28.5, get free Shini Kensei, bunch of stones from pyramid draws, and probably more stones from Puzzle/or Shini Yoruichi. Can't decide if I want to keep the gold or just T1 Kensei on Day 1 from Treasure Map.

Probably just keep the gold, grab someone else in another event, and slowly work on T1. Not quite sure.
author: ajoalex    time: 2015-10-11 20:31:02

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 05:23
It did a long time ago. They fixed it rather quickly. I remember some Yachiru video floating aroun ...

i dt think they fixed it and it wasn't a bug unlike kensei's, the dodge was for real but as you said that chance for ES to hit was high, also yachi wouldn't do any damage so maybe no one tried her. so you telling ryuuken with 300% dodge doesn't stand against the ES, well then i guess nobody else will if not ryuuken.

Probably just keep the gold, grab someone else in another event, and slowly work on T1. Not quite sure.

this is better, no hurry
author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-12 04:12:21

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 01:09
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!

I do find it funny that you tell me to check my mat ...

You're correct about the 250%hit - 300%dodge rate. My mistake

Ryuuken has 60% from Mods, 30% passively, 90% from stones, and 30% from skill. Before evolution. Before bond. Before nel. That is 210%.

How are you going to get your skill off if he's so mofo slow. This leaves you at 180dodge (60+30+90).
Now let's assume I got that juicy 250%hit on all my partners.. I wonder what would happen..

When I mentioned Rukia, I was referring to the fact that shes going to skill first in this set up, and before anyone else on the enemy team. This means she is probably going to kill some stuff. Having 300% hit rate on characters she kills won't impact Ryuuken at all, because, well, they would be dead.


Once more what's the point talking about how great Bankai rukia is when you're making a topic to make ryuuken good aka make HIM shine.

Ryuuken has 190% max crit rate.
After he skills..which  won't happen cuz he's slow.



I am trying to figure out where he might fit in.


As for that, it has already been suggested (Make a dodge team and abuse his skill/mods). If you want to throw in a bankai rukia and what not, you said it yourself: SHE KILLS EVERYONE. What's the use of ryuuken there? Might aswell use another partner.


As for shinigami yoruichi raping ryuuken in a 1v1, I was serious. It seems to me that you aren't looking at other partner skills. In a 1v1 all she needs is to crit and get her invulnerability of --> She'll deal damage and won't recieve any besides the 1st hit.
author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-12 04:13:14

ajoalex replied at 2015-10-12 01:18
Thats what even i thought, but why does it not work on hma aizen 1v1 for me then, with 280% hit , ...

I did it with 294%hit on Noza
author: Aristeaus    time: 2015-10-12 04:56:38

595459354 replied at 2015-10-12 04:12
You're correct about the 250%hit - 300%dodge rate. My mistake


If you have 250% hit to 180% dodge, that is a 70% hit rate. It effectively will give Ryuuken 30% more effective HP, as well as the benefits of no fury return. He has a decent stamina growth rate, so you really aren't one shotting him, especially since as your clean up hes getting the majority of your stones.

Maybe shine was the wrong word. I think we can both agree, there really isn't a viable option for him to truly shine. It is just so slow to run the dodge/nel stuff. Perhaps I was settling for just a reasonable way to use Ryuuken at the end of the day.

Shini Yoruichi really doesn't rape Ryuuken. My comments were under the assumption you were talking ShiniYoru vs Mugetsu. If you are talking true endgame, 90% crit vs 90% counter, she isn't going to reliably crit to gain that extra fury. Ryuuken would undoubtably one shot Yoruichi and they are both pretty much the same speed.

I actually do agree with you. You can replace Ryuuken in a BRukia cleanup team composition with about 8 other characters in the game and get basically the same effect. I do think Ryuuken is still one of the stronger 1v1 characters, but not by enough to warrant buying a character who is objectively bad at every other aspect of the game.

Shini Kensei, for example, has same str growth, is much faster, has much more of a benefit in other aspects of the game, has more health, and can also hold his own against Mugetsu ( Disarm being one of the only things Mugetsu isn't immune to ).

Ryuuken is one of those characters that is absurd on paper and you try to make him work but it probably ends up doing more harm then good. Unohana Kenpachi is another good example. Insane on paper, you can make nutso plays by Invulning a specific character, etc, but so much can go wrong that it isn't worth trying to abuse her. Granted, she is still really good, but when she came out my mind went straight away to like invulning a Resurection Ulqiorra whos damage is flat nutso, but is weak to basically everything.

author: 595459354    time: 2015-10-12 05:12:08

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-12 10:56
If you have 250% hit to 180% dodge, that is a 70% hit rate. It effectively will give Ryuuken 30% m ...
If you are talking true endgame, 90% crit vs 90% counter, she isn't going to reliably crit to gain that extra fury. Ryuuken would undoubtably one shot Yoruichi and they are both pretty much the same speed.


1) She has a crit mod + there's evo --> 90stones + 15%mod + 19.30% (evo) = 124.30%

2) Mugetsu might have a chance because he can decrease fury on 1st round and kill her off in 2 rounds, as for Ryuuken, he hasn't got the damage. And ryuuken won't 1shot Shiniyoru (end game wise, it's difficult for characters of the same kind to 1 shot each other) --> SHe'll get her skill of and that's game.

She might not win 100% of those battles but pretty sure it'd be 80%+

Unohana Kenpachi is another good example. Insane on paper, you can make nutso plays by Invulning a specific character, etc, but so much can go wrong that it isn't worth trying to abuse her


Go ask brah for some links, if you think it all trough... there's a way to make it work 100% of the time.

But yeah, It's a shame they made him a slowpoke since he has some potential.

ps: You should focus more on speed than sta/hp unless you're talking about a VG (unless he's immune to void) :p
author: SeiryuSky    time: 2015-10-12 14:21:35

lol you said prelude.... first think it hought of was bach preludes XD
author: SeiryuSky    time: 2015-10-12 14:26:52

Aristeaus replied at 2015-10-11 19:09
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion!

I do find it funny that you tell me to check my mat ...

passive does not surpass 90% limit though tested it before it means it will reduce the amount of stones you need but not surpass it only mods+evo surpasses
author: Zento-Hazashi    time: 2015-10-12 14:32:49

wtf is this thread, all i see is ALVA with buttlong shit paragraphs ( I haven't read them, don't plan to ) and shit that's uncalled for

He's an extremely FOCUSED character that shouldn't be appointed to a team that's just looking for a partner that could simply 'help them', more of the fact that you'd actually focus on him yourself, and surround your formation with him

P.S He's a character that works around his modify, think about how long it takes to get there up high into his mods that he NEEDS, characters don't NEED mods, this one does
      Sure, he can be great, with damage and all, but overall, no partner should solely depend on their mods, and then tremble before other characters simply due to relying on in-game time

Also, he dodges, not immune. ANY CC hitting him is game over, stop making him 'good' or trying to think of possibilities, he's either to be focused with, or left alone, away from your formation



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