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Title: Please help me: Shinso Gin or red tavern Urahara? (who would be faster?) [Print this page]
author: X-Zero13    time: 2017-4-21 16:20:49     Title: Please help me: Shinso Gin or red tavern Urahara? (who would be faster?)

Edited by X-Zero13 at 2017-4-25 13:56

There was already a discussion about Shinso Gin and tavern Urahara in another thread, but I just wanna get as much opinions as possiburu.

My situation:
I'm a proud VIP0. I'm currently using tavern Urahara (who I turned red via the tavern update of course), he T1s my entire team and therefore I make him my fastest partner all the time. Having a different partner being faster than my T1-maker is a no-go for me, so my entire team's speed is restricted to Urahara's speed. My zan is Sode with maxed out speed, I'm also using red Shunsui (with ex-skill) and his "10% speed to all allies"-mod already. I got Urahara to ex-skill-lvl 10, saving more ex-frags right now for possible future purposes.

My goal: getting faster, while still keeping an all-allies fury booster for T1.

My idea: replacing Urahara with Shinso Gin, who I'd get with coupons/comrade contracts from honor shop. (Of course and as always, I'll spend big amounts of coupon only during visored to grab all the rewards like tier 11/12 hogu and to get coupons back). He'd get the same build as Urahara has now (set, stones, hogu, just everything). I'm already working on getting the Fury stones (and psychic in weapon) so Shinso would also be able to T1. By the time I'd manage to get Shinso (maybe a year or so ), I'll most likely have enough fury stones for that or at least be not noteworthy far away.
An alternative (and possibly faster and coupon-cheaper) way that I could go would be if Shinso shows up in UBP or similar vit-requiring events. I happen to have enough vit for that right now (But I'd prefer to go for something that I can't get in any other way as a VIP0, like... let's say Tensa or Koga )
Also if I'd get Shinso Gin, I'd give him some more ex-frags than Kisuke (for now, my ex-lvl goal for my most important partners is 30).

My problem: With the tavern upgrade for Urahara to a red partner, I'm not sure if Shinso Gin would actually be faster.
Urahara has now a speed growth rate of 5.4, versus Shinso Gin's "measly" 3.8 . Seems as if Urahara is way faster, at least if you - like me - believe that growth rate is more/most important.
But someone (that I trust with these kinda things) once told me that the base value is actually more important. There we'd have 240 for Urahara (...cute) vs. Shinso's 1500. In this regard, Shinso tops, of course. Then there's Shinso's talent; 5% more speed than Urahara. And then there are Shinso's mods, that give him 2x 10% (I know getting these will be a pain, but since I'm also going for Muken Aizen, I'm planning to top-up a little amount once I get at least one of them, just to make some mod frag inherit; so let's just assume the mods for Shinso are no issue).

So yeah... all in all, the mere growth rate is in the end the only thing where red Urahara is better. So I'm wondering if all the other aspects where Shinso tops will make him faster than Urahara or not. So here's

My question to you guys: would/will Shinso Gin be faster than red tavern Urahara when equally built? This is really just about speed, if he won't be faster, I wouldn't want Shinso in the first place  (I know Shinso would have some other benefits over Urahara, but as I just said, more Speed is my prime objective and motivation).

Feel free to comment in detail as well, if you want.

Much thanks in advance.

author: Cronosel    time: 2017-4-21 16:33:42

Edited by Cronosel at 2017-4-21 18:34

Get Shinso Gin, if u know, base status is the true diference. Growth rates with low base status don't worth. IT's like Red Hollowed ichigo is better than Sexy Kukkaku or Bankai Kenpachi because of growth rates. Other thing: the skill, yes man, the skill make all diference, shinso all the ways, he is a stronger support pve and pvp t1 regen fury support, have good combo rate, attack all, and irrisory stun chance. Shinso all the ways !
author: faracorn    time: 2017-4-21 17:32:05

look mate take s.gin his skill is epic and if you stack him like fucking hell and you can active his ex.skill he ll be massive upgrade to  your pvp team
author: Miken97    time: 2017-4-21 18:20:24

Edited by Miken97 at 2017-4-22 00:24

shinso is faster and by a lot, firstly just from his stats he should be faster (like that someone said base value seems to be more important than growth rate), but tbh stats don't matter that much, what makes difference in their speed really big are mods-which are far more important than stats btw - urahara don't get any speed from mods while shinso get 20% (10% just for himself and 10% for all kido allies), even tho urahara can use red hogu while shinso can't and even if he had a lot higher base stats than gin (what he doesn't) 5% agility and 20% from mods are just too much for urahara to be even close to shinso's speed
But even though shinso is easily faster than urahara I wouldn't recommend you to get him, especially from honor shop, as f2p you can't use legend gallery so you would need to get 500 comrade contract, if you would get those contracts via buying them in honor shop you would need to pay around 50k coupons which you could use to get pure t1 for your strongest character (let's say for muken), IMO it's completely not worth it, trying to get them from daily task seems more reasonable (since it's a lot cheaper) but still pretty expensive and that way you would miss rewards from visored revenge (since you can't get all those contracts at once), it is pretty good way for pernament shinigami user (10 free refreshes makes it pretty cheap or even free with enough patience) or even viable for someone who made enough top-up to get him from legend gallery (hard to say if it is still worth it but at least you could consider it then, personally I wouldn't use it in that case) but not for f2p.
Now also take in account how long it would take you, you said it would be a year, in that time shinso will be completely outdated, damn even now he is compared with tavern partner.
Also another thing is his usefulness, he is better than urahara in PvE but I honestly doubt he will make big difference in PvP , while his stun can be pretty useful sometimes, his damage output won't be that amazing, he can hit quite hard but most of the time not hard enough to make significant difference, especially with those vanguards getting easily over 140% block (and stacking vanguard is pretty popular tactic- tbh not without reason), also while he is faster than urahara there are a lot of partners faster than him (and there will be even more available for f2p once you get him) who sometimes can kill him or reduce his fury what would cause you to lose your t1, in urahara's case at least that 1st situation isn't problem because of his 7th mod.
Last thing is t1, while he is easier to t1 than most of partners, it isn't as easy as urahara's t1, if you could make shinso t1 then with coupons spared by not getting him you could make any partner t1 so IMO it is what you should do: resign from gin, spend those coupons for lvl 4 stones pack during reio (another advantage of not getting gin btw, you would have better stones) and while still having your urahara t1 and making him t1 your team work also on getting second partnr t1 (without help from urahara), once he will be t1 he won't be restrained by urahara anymore so you can make him faster than urahara (won't work that well with muken, but for example koga will gain a lot of speed that way) and give him a lot of exclusive fragments without any worries
author: MylarHyrule    time: 2017-4-21 18:28:21

my vang has the best of my kido stuff, this guy is here for easy fights, and to make Hyroin go off as quick as possible and my speed is nowhere near impressive
[attach]18732[/attach]

this is my rival's Shinso, he's a little more stacked and has quite a bit more cash pumped into him
[attach]18733[/attach]

so yeah, Shinso blows Kiuske out of the water...  oh, and the stun rate bonus on mine is close to 65% +  whatever the small chance that is there from the skill itself
author: Cronosel    time: 2017-4-21 18:37:32

See shinso gin stun works in PvP. Stun saved the shinso team, my oetsu is heavy stacked and i lose because of his stun.

http://bleachjf.gametrees.com/fi ... ;t=1&lang=en_US

Totally worth
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-21 18:39:16

Edited by LadyKyojin at 2017-4-21 23:50

okey we have kisuke growth rate at 5.4 x level cap is 159atm = 858.6 add that to his base which is 240 total =1098.6 that be his total base when you hit max level 159

now with shinso 3.8 x 159lvl = 604.2 + shinso base 1500 = base stat at level 159 = 2104.2

i think that how it works unless growth rate is base by percentage and not whole number i did not factor in the speed talents or bonds this is just pure base stats kisuke will probaly catch shinso at around level 340 but that still a stretch and level cap hasnt increased since start of the game so there is that.
Also shinso can be classed as a support vangaurd hybrid has high immune rate defense mod and block giving him stregth stones is a good way.
author: Cronosel    time: 2017-4-21 18:45:58

LadyKyojin replied at 2017-4-21 20:39
okey we have kisuke growth rate at 5.4 x level cap is 159atm = 858.6 add that to his base which is 2 ...

Thanks for the explanation <3
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-21 18:51:17

Cronosel replied at 2017-4-21 23:45
Thanks for the explanation

you welcome
author: Miken97    time: 2017-4-21 19:08:55

Edited by Miken97 at 2017-4-22 01:12
LadyKyojin replied at 2017-4-22 00:39
okey we have kisuke growth rate at 5.4 x level cap is 159atm = 858.6 add that to his base which is 2 ...

I really doubt it work like that, I just took off my noza's whole gear and level uped him, he got 235 strength so it isn't equal to his growth rate but it doesn't look like base by percentage either (tho I guess that stats character gets with every level is affected by both base stats and growth rate), honestly I have no idea how it works tho and doubt that anyone figured it out
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-21 22:02:21

Miken97 replied at 2017-4-22 00:08
I really doubt it work like that, I just took off my noza's whole gear and level uped him, he got 2 ...

have you taken in account for increase growth rate with exclusive upgrade, and other upgrade you may miss out unless someone clarify i believe this to be the closet
author: Miken97    time: 2017-4-22 12:16:16

LadyKyojin replied at 2017-4-22 04:02
have you taken in account for increase growth rate with exclusive upgrade, and other upgrade you m ...

I just have extra 0,24 strength growth rate from exclusive, shouldn't do that much difference, also most of things-except spirit stones- just give pure stats and shouldn't be affected by lvl up (took everything off to be sure tho), even if I missed something it wouldn't change 4 strenght he should get according to your calculations to 235 so it doesn't work llike that, either way we both can agree that stats don't matter that much, right?
author: @ra5h_V    time: 2017-4-22 14:02:47

any partner without stones is useless i vote for visored revenge and lvl 4 stone packs and a pure t1 aoe like yama
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-22 18:13:01

Edited by LadyKyojin at 2017-4-22 23:18
Miken97 replied at 2017-4-22 17:16
I just have extra 0,24 strength growth rate from exclusive, shouldn't do that much difference, als ...

also natural talents like increase agility by certain percentage or higher percentage it does not give you that actual percentage but i think shinso is 20% agility by looking at wiki it will increase his base stat 1500 20% of that is extra 300 on top making it 1800 its like a hidden agility stone or it adds 20% to the final agility stat when evrything has been added on  

so if the growth rate is 5 per level up, for that stat at level 5 =25 which is not much but if the base stat is high and has talent bonus in that area then its a bonus. until someone prove otherwise im sticking to my theory . i have a level 1 zambimaru renji untouched i will test on it tonight and see what this growth rate is all about
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-22 18:39:27

Edited by LadyKyojin at 2017-4-23 00:11
Miken97 replied at 2017-4-22 17:16
I just have extra 0,24 strength growth rate from exclusive, shouldn't do that much difference, als ...

well i didi the test abit earlier then expected i had a bit of spare time but not enough to ring out the discrepencies but you can see its only off by 18.5 if i get more time i try find out why and i got screen shot for you lol i forgot that rank also plays its role i have mugetsu so everyone gets extra 2000 strength to their base.

now if you look at his wisdom its off by only 4 so i am wondering that the 2 growth rate is already added on at level 1 so he would have base wisdom at 102 at level 1 instead of 100 as it states in his base stats???, i really need someone to clarify how stats work and grow as they level up someone like rythen who has contact with devs maybe they can help? i see gogames support is alive since they emailed me back 2 times it really must be end of times hahaha
[attach]18740[/attach]



author: Devvoke2    time: 2017-4-23 23:22:27

Note: The author has been banned or deleted.
author: devil9315    time: 2017-4-24 10:21:30

Edited by devil9315 at 2017-4-24 13:28

This is my shinso gin, lvl 50 exclusive skill(his exclusive skill sucks so hard,im not even using it because if i use that then my  full team won`t get t1 and then my enemy will still hit and  make  100 fury for next turn skill,and if  he doesn`t kill the enemy  and you don`t have that much speed on the others partners then you are dead) is just as simple as that ) [attach]18754[/attach]  My personal opinion for you just stick to your Shunsui. make him t1,red name also,  use all your speed stones on him,and then you can use kisuke to t1 the rest with no worries for speed on him,cuz you will get invincibility fron Shunsui plus another random partner will get 50 fury so a second t1.  Don`t use so many resouces just to get one char that might not be as good as you want to, YES he is very usefull in pve and pvp to,but in times like this he is so outdated and old.
I`m using him from a while now  and i do feel somehow bad for not going for shunsui and his exclusive.  Just for the records i still recruited shunsui and made him red ) just so i can cry more
author: LadyKyojin    time: 2017-4-24 19:54:57

Devvoke2 replied at 2017-4-24 04:22
stop trying to use logic

cant help it
author: Devvoke2    time: 2017-4-24 22:24:44

Note: The author has been banned or deleted.
author: devil9315    time: 2017-4-25 06:18:17

Devvoke2 replied at 2017-4-24 22:24
are you drunk shinso exclusive is gawdlike

no im not drunk, his excusive skill is usable maybe agains weak players with tavern partners,cuz the others hiki,senju,b.rukia and so on,most of them have imune silence. like i said useless
author: MylarHyrule    time: 2017-4-25 11:16:26

devil9315 replied at 2017-4-25 06:18
no im not drunk, his excusive skill is usable maybe agains weak players with tavern partners,cuz th ...

I'd never use his exclusive either, I can't give up my fury builder Gin!!
author: devil9315    time: 2017-4-25 11:21:33

MylarHyrule replied at 2017-4-25 11:16
I'd never use his exclusive either, I can't give up my fury builder Gin!!

exactly!!
author: Devvoke2    time: 2017-4-25 19:17:17

Note: The author has been banned or deleted.
author: sakata26    time: 2017-4-30 08:53:50

Edited by sakata26 at 2017-4-30 08:56

no one has taken into consideration that if he red names kisuke.. he can put t12 hogus on him making up  for the growth base difference lol.
i mean.. i agree that if both had similiar set ups and what not.. shinso having max t11 and kisuke being t12 ... shinso may scale a little higher.. but for a tav partner that you can get faster .. i say it's worth a try to use him for the time being.. until u get a comfortable set up with shinso gin..


take my Hollowed Ichigo vs my Ichibe for example.. YES theoretically my ichibe is a stronger choice.. but my hollowed ichigo is definitely much more tankier and stronger at this current stage.






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